Philosophy of AA:

a Drunk and Some Opinions

What’s Up with Agent Orange?

Critics of AA
The Angry Orange

A few months back, I was sponsoring someone special.  An educated man, this guy was down on his luck and was guided to AA.  We could relate to one another because neither of us was excited about the religiosity commonly found in AA.  We both had scientific backgrounds and both had similar views on the subject of the 2nd Step. 

After a while, my new friend started asking weird questions and forwarding me psychiatric journal articles that mentioned AA.  As his sponsor, it was a bit of a concern.  Sort of like someone going to the car dealer and buying a Chevy then 6 months later going to the library to research the decision. 
As things went, an attitude of hostility and defiance followed the research and eventually my friend disappeared. 
In reading the Orange Papers I’m reminded of my pal. 
The Orange Papers is an online book with the apparent aim of discrediting AA in any means possible.  In its pages, AA is referred to as a cult and that the “AA Treatment” is statistically worse than  having no treatment at all.    There are critical stories of one of the co-founders (probably both in there somewhere) and some works propagating discension on how our financial affairs have been handled.  All and all, its quite an enterprise.
The author of the entire site gives his credentials, saying “ I have at least attended lots of A.A. meetings, and have been through the 12-Step “treatment” mill.”   Obviously he has quite an ax grind with AA.
In thinking about my friend and the Orange Papers, I get grateful and sad.
I’m grateful because I was blessed, when I reached the same place inside AA where I was questioning things and really angry…I got involved in General Service.  I can TOTALLY see myself getting frustrated with the cliche’s, the strange suggestions and everything else that our collective seems to pick up.   At that point in my sobriety (3 year mark), I festered on the outskirts of AA for about a year, then slowly started to get active.  Eventually I did a complete 180 and got to be immersed in General Service.  Serving my group and the general public as an AA member put me in some interesting places.  It deepened my understanding of AA and of how fortunate I am to be sober today.  Just going to meetings turned out to not be enough for me, as I expect may have been the case for ”Agent Orange.”
I was sad because in reading what dissenter’s have to say about AA, I know that there are some truths to their arguements.   As a whole, we can not control the 2 million plus ‘knuckle-heads’ that call themselves members.  There will be some members that think its okay (for them) to do things that are completely opposite of AA principles.   As a loosely organized, totally voluntary, non-hierarchal group, we will always be an easy target for someone wanting to exploit some problem within our ranks.  It’s just sad that there are people so hyped up and eager to slander a fellowship that has so much goodness and self-sacrifice put into its mission of helping alcoholics stay sober.

One thing I can say about the Orange Papers, they certainly devote a tremendous amount of time to their work.  I don’t have that much time to devote to arguing each false claim they make.

What I can say is that getting involved in General Service, going to Regional Forums and meeting the trustees and workers at our General Service Office, that AA is open to everyone; even Agent Orange.  My first Regional Forum, there was a few people that had a beef with some decision made at GSO and they came with the express purpose of making it known to EVERYONE that they had a problem.  These people were given every opportunity to express their concerns and were treated with dignity.  The decision they disliked was explained  patiently and while they may have still not agreed, they were at the very least INFORMED.   Thanks to the 12 Concepts and 12 Traditions, our fellowship can make it through our times of trouble.  In studying AA history and my own experiences, the leaders in AA do make mistakes.  ”We are NOT saints!”  Orange Guy seems to like to criticize Bill W.   I think we’d be worse off if our leaders were perfect.  Who in AA would follow some goody goody?

In my journey in AA, I learned so much about our fellowship and its founders.  I learned about the dissention between members and the troubles we had in our early days. Many of these things Orange covers.  Given our beginnings its a wonder that we didn’t have more problems than we did!

The AA Principles allow us to recover and learn from our problems.  The real benefit lies in being able to help others and help our fellowship grow instead of resorting to vengance and hostility. 

Message to Orange:   Drop the AX!

December 20, 2009 - Posted by | Uncategorized

10 Comments »

  1. Hi, you give good advice on how to avoid getting resentful against the fellowship and others in it – service! My opinion of AA is that it provides a useful workshop to help those of us who find joining in with other people difficult, the end result being we feel part of the human race and don’t need to drink anymore to feel that the world is okay.

    Orange papers is a big rant from an angry guy. Unfortunately he wants company and is prepared to write pretty much anything to get his way. Here is a useful link which discredits several of his many distortions. http://www.green-papers.org/

    Enjoy sobriety!

    Comment by Miles | January 5, 2010 | Reply

    • Thanks for the link! It sounds like Orange is willing to concede that one person in AA is helped as long as he ruins the life of five others.

      Its interesting, because looking at the people I met in AA but no longer attend meetings, none of them have the same hostility towards AA. Usually there is just a stronger desire to drink. Go figure, an alcoholic that wants to drink!?!

      Comment by Anonymous Drunk | January 5, 2010 | Reply

  2. It makes no difference at all whether Orange is angry or not. Pay attention to what he says — not how he says it.
    If what he says make sense, pay attention. If it does not make sense, go about other business. This is a free country.

    Comment by Quero | January 13, 2010 | Reply

  3. Mostly true, Quero. His emotional state is irrelevant although it may provide some explanation for his misleading rants.

    As far as the rest of your comment, the US of A has its liberties as protected in the constitution, but that doesn’t mean people can do whatever they want or say whatever they want. Try starting a blog about assasinating the president, you will see how free we are. You’ll find overall, that there are many laws and much fewer freedoms.

    Having said that, Orange is probably safe in his attacks since AA has a policy of avoiding public controversy. As an organization, they basically say they won’t fight back. That’s why its so confusing about him continuing to fight. I just wish he’d come clean and admit what his real problem is and stop the charade.

    Comment by Anonymous Drunk | January 13, 2010 | Reply

  4. Well,

    It isn’t the first time an AA supporter argues against Dr. Orange. Kinda like welcome to the club. But we never see any AA supporters dispute the facts he publishes. AA supporters typically rely on the well-worn cliches instilled by the program, e.g. “he is angry!”, these labels are typically methods to avoid facing uncomfortable perspectives. Orange always gets accused of “attacks”, almost like AA supporters cannot debate the merits of the program but in turn must degenerate to accusations.

    AA certainly opened my eyes, but I moved beyond. I have no mission to support AA or support Orange, but we all should have a goal to keep seeking. If moving ahead in our lives includes exposing some disadvantages about AA, or some truths about AA, why do people object? Is it an honest program or not?

    Roland

    Comment by Syncro | April 1, 2010 | Reply

  5. Thanks Roland. Your comments are of interest.

    As far as moving beyond, good for you! Keep seeking. Hopefully there are others in your community that are available to help the suffering alcoholic who is looking for a way out that haven’t “moved beyond” AA. The 11th Step asks us to Seek (actually “Sought”) and I’m interested in your reason for feeling that you have to ‘seek’ from OUTSIDE of AA. My buddy that just died of a heroine overdose was a seeker that had moved beyond too. I hope it works out better for you. In the years of going to homeless shelter meetings, I’d often times meet someone who claimed to have 20+ years of sobriety. In discussion, they’d admit to having only gone to meetings and helping others for a fraction of that time, they moved beyond too. Obviously these are just some of the negative examples, but I rarely encounter alcoholics that just quit and everything stays good.

    As far as accepting Orange’s comments as fact, there’s some problem there. Most AA members really don’t have much knowledge about the historical or institutional aspects of Alcoholics Anonymous. That’s ok. It’s not a requirement. So most AA members probably wouldn’t have the background to intelligently debate Orange. Those that DO know the real facts about AA AND thier context (which is where Orange seems to be most misleading) probably don’t have nearly as much time or energy to try to convince someone. They probably just focus on the willing that show up at AA’s doors each and every day.

    For whatever reason, I am interested in those that have rejected AA. If they were wronged, I’m interested. It happens. I do see flaws in AA, but interestingly its usually the “personalities” instead of the “principles”.

    When I used to tell my sponsor about problems with people in AA, he’d simply exclaim, “Well people don’t come to AA.” That my dear Roland, is irrefutable :)

    Comment by Anonymous Drunk | April 1, 2010 | Reply

  6. There it is, in Anonymous Drunk’s reply to Roland.. These lines:

    “My buddy that just died of a heroine overdose was a seeker that had moved beyond too. I hope it works out better for you.”.. then he goes on to imply that the others who are ‘sober without AA” are in homeless shelters.

    OH MAN! Such a wicked turn going on here. Unless Roland or whoever is the recipient of this poisonous perspective were AWARE enough to see that the AA virus is defending its existence in AD’s words.. the drone bee basically says that you are going to die or end up in a shelter if you go a seekin’. for those that do not have enough defenses, and leave AA, you can bet that these subtle suggestions will make any relapse WORSE.

    This is the cult-like tripe that makes AA a nightmare, especially with the falsely open and friendly tone that AD starts his email off with… First encouraging him to ‘keep seeking’ and then suggesting that it will lead to his death.. so here AD has actually encouraged Roland to move on to his death or a shelter.

    great! AA is such a miracle!

    wanker.

    Comment by thomas blair | April 3, 2010 | Reply

    • Thomas or wanker,

      When responding to Roland, I just knew an expert at reading between the lines would show up. Interestingly, that’s what started this post in the first place.

      Much like you, I was once told to read the “black parts of the page”. It was useful advice for me, as I was always one who loved to try to put words in peoples mouth. It actually was quite a hobby. Hopefully Roland, if you’re still out there, you don’t sense the same implications as wanker does. While its always possible that someone can die (we all die, don’t we?) or end up in a shelter, its not mandatory. I have one friend who quit going to AA for about 8 years, got involved in a church, then came back to AA. It happens. It is even feasible that people can leave AA and simply out grow it. Unfortunately, so many (not necessarily all, smart guy) of those people end up doing substantially more damage. Personally, I’ve never met anyone that I wanted to trade places with.

      Sorry Thomas, but that’s just my experience.

      Having said all that, if someone in AA ever did hurt your feelings and attempt to shun or publicly humiliate you be cause you didn’t do things “the AA way”, I’m sorry. I’ve experienced that too, and have witnessed it thousands of times. As I said in my response to Roland, we AA’s often take lots and lots of time to grow up, if we ever do. One of my sponsors has 30+ years sober and still acts much like my 4 year old when upset. I’ve known some friends that have moved into some small towns and all they could share is whole towns where that bullshit was the norm. While that is unfortunate, that’s people, not the philosophy of AA.

      AD

      Comment by Anonymous Drunk | April 3, 2010 | Reply

  7. AA celebrated 75 years of sobriety on June 10th of last year. I have never heard of the Big Book going out and getting f’d up or the 12 and 12 being at the bar with the key so no one could get into a meeting.

    Unfortunately the same cannot be said of “all” the people in AA. There are a ton of sick, sorry people in AA. Some want to get sober and some don’t. There are predators that recognize good hunting grounds. These are the low life’s that give AA a bad name. They form groups of losers. You could go to them and learn everything they know and you would be a loser just like them.

    If you want to learn how to fight Indians you should probably not go to the General George A. Custer school of Indian fighting. Likewise you have to cull the losers from who you associate with in AA or you are going to get massacred and end up with an attitude like “Agent Orange” (Maybe rightfully so)

    I came into to AA to get “Myself” sober, no one else. The problem is that people that have no experience in sobriety are shoved into helping others when they have no clue how to even help themselves. There is no test to take to be a sponsor in AA or to be a member of AA.

    You have the people that think they are the President of AA or there are Guru’s and Gurettes also. They have El Grande sobriety and will let you know it. Super spiritual sobriety with a halo to boot is there goal. The halo usually falls down around there necks and they get hung by it.

    When they came around passing out Super Spiritual sobriety and regular sobriety I asked for regular.

    When I see guys go up to a new girl and tell her they would like to help her with the steps I immediately approach them and tell him to grow some balls. “Don’t tell her you want to help her, tell her the truth, tell her you want a piece of a$$.) I then watch as they scatter like cock roaches when the light is turned on.

    The program of AA works. Unfortunately not all the people that are in AA work the program.

    My girlfriend is a dietician and she hates the Atkins diet. She does not devote her entire life to discrediting Atkins however. She has a degree in Psychology also and has looked at the webpage of Agent Orange and believes by the look of it he has many issues. Personality disorders ad infinitum, blah blah blah…

    Find a way to get sober. The easiest way to stop drinking for good is not to pick up a drink. Then you can work on yourself. AA worked for me when I started working it. Peace, Aikidoman

    Comment by Ichibongaijin | March 1, 2011 | Reply

  8. Thanks Aikidoman, many good points that I’ve observed too.

    When I was getting sober, I’d see someone that didn’t appear to be really “doing the deal” and wonder how they were staying sober. I learned to just wait, trust God, clean house, & help others and it wasn’t long and I wasn’t seeing that person around. Even the guru or “President of AA” personalities usually balance out over time. Leadership in AA isn’t a bad thing though. Our program makes it clear the limitations on leaders (do not govern, do not drive by mandate, etc).

    Keep on trudging!

    Comment by Anonymous Drunk | March 1, 2011 | Reply


Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s

Follow

Get every new post delivered to your Inbox.